Indian River
Rick from Goose on Music, Spiritual Seeking, and Hare Krishna Connections
avināśi tu tad viddhi yena sarvam idaṃ tatam vināśam avyayasyāsya na kaścit kartum arhati That which pervades the entire body, know it to be indestructible Nothing can destroy the imperishable soul – Bhagavad Gita, Chapter 2 Verse 17
These elegant Sanskrit words, which comprise the mysterious and psychedelic bridge of Goose’s song Indian River, are lifted directly from the pages of one India’s most revered scriptures.
Dating back to the 2nd century BC, the Bhagavad Gita (“Song of God”) tells the story of the warrior prince Arjuna, who is about to lead his army into an epic battle with a warring faction of his extended royal family. Arjuna feels a significant amount of anxiety over the battle owing to the fact that the opposing army includes many of his friends and relatives. He then consults with his friend and charioteer, who also happens to be the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krishna. Krishna explains to Arjuna that he has nothing to fear in the coming battle. His revelatory, mind-blowing message is essentially this: Every human soul on the battlefield before them is an eternal soul which is part of the Supreme Lord, and souls change bodies like a person changes clothes. Every person in that battle has lived before, and will live again. It is Arjuna’s duty (dharma) to engage in this righteous war and defeat those who are destined to be punished for their evil deeds. Over the course of 18 chapters, Krishna then explains to Arjuna the three methods of spiritual realization; these are karma yoga– selfless action in the world, jnana yoga– the attainment of spiritual wisdom, and bhakti yoga– loving devotion and service to the Lord.
In short, the Bhagavad Gita is a treasure of ancient humanity- fountainhead of wisdom that speaks to all walks of life and accounts for the full range of human activities and emotions. As an aspiring devotee of Krishna, discovering the connection between this verse from the Gita and the song by Goose was a critical moment that intensified my love for the band and set me out on a journey to discover the story behind the song and the songwriter.
I started listening to Goose sometime in late 2019, after noticing an increasing amount of buzz about them in various jam band circles and forums. Regrettably, I was actually at Peach Festival in 2019 when they played their viral breakout set, but missed it, not knowing who they were at the time. As soon as I checked out their catalog seriously, I kicked myself hard for that. Their music was, simply put, fantastic. They were a jam band proper, putting out several improvisational art pieces ranging 15-20 minutes every show, and not a single one getting boring. Rick’s guitar style was simultaneously bluesy and jazzy, somehow both rootsy and exotic. The smiling and mustachioed Peter on the keys was the innocent, extraverted Yang to Rick’s brooding and creative Yin. The rhythm section was equally excellent, with sunglasses-at-night Trevor projecting a perpetual atmosphere of cool into the band’s vibe, and the plucky, talented Ben on the drums punctuating the band’s melodies with his snappy, percussive style. Overall, these guys had excellent chemistry as a band. They could masterfully change key, tempos and atmosphere on a moment’s notice, and could pull off tension and release dynamics with a mastery comparable to Phish. It was funky, groovy, trippy, moody, and sexy stuff. You could jump around and dance like crazy to it, or just sit back and let the bliss wash over you.
But even better than the jams themselves was the excellent song-writing, and the songs themselves. Rick’s voice was nothing short of gorgeous. It seemed to emanate sincerity, strength, and kindness. I could tell that Rick was an introverted seeker like myself, somebody on a similar wavelength who I could easily connect with on a spiritual level given the right circumstances. Their songs were easy to love, and full to the brim with positive, healing energy. They were the kind of band you could show to your girlfriend or your parents, and know for a fact that they would like it.
When I first heard the song Indian River, I recognized the words as Sanskrit, but having almost no familiarity with the language, I was unable to decipher the words in a way that would make them searchable. I had heard on message boards on Facebook that it was a verse from the Bhagavad Gita, which I thought was awesome, but I wasn’t sure if anybody knew which one. Then one day, I had flipped to a random page of my copy of the Gita when, to my delight and astonishment, I stumbled upon the words from the Goose song! I recognized them instantly.
Your voice is strong now, I heard it in a dream
I had first started reading the Gita about a year prior in the winter of 2018-2019, which was a time of powerful spiritual awakening for me. There seemed to have been an acceleration of events in those months which sent me down various pathways leading me towards higher consciousness. I had started devouring lectures by Ram Dass, the genius author of Be Here Now (a must-read for any spiritual seeker). I ordered a set of sandalwood mala beads from his website, which I began chanting with and quickly developed a close affinity for. I had also found myself going regularly to the Hare Krishna temple in Boston. The food was free and fantastic, which was a serious draw. More than that, I came to develop a genuine emotional connection and relationship with the deity on that beautiful altar to which we sang songs, bowed our heads to, and offered fruits and flowers. In a mysterious way, I found that I could gaze upon that marble statue and recognize something of my unique, individual higher self. This recognition was at first shocking and somewhat mind-blowing, and it made me feel deeply emotional and grateful. This whole experience was an entirely new thing for me.
For those that don’t know, the Hare Krishna movement was brought to the America in the 1960s by the great spiritual teacher known as Srila Prabhupad. The organization that he founded, called ISKCON (International Society for Krishna Consciousness), now boasts more than 600 temples across the globe in more than 60 countries. Their core beliefs are essentially identical to those of the billion practicing Hindus worldwide. These include the understanding that the body and the material world are a passing illusion, and that the individual soul reincarnates through countless lives in a journey to free themselves of karma and learn spiritual lessons that will eventually bring the soul back home to oneness with God. Krishna, also called Vishnu, is the most popular of the three major deities worshipped throughout India, followed by Lord Shiva and then the various forms of the Goddess. Go anywhere in India and you will meet a staggering proportion of individuals whose names are a direct reference to Krishna.
There are several characteristics that are distinct to Hare Krishna belief system, however. One primary belief is that singing, chanting, or even simply listening to the Hare Krishna Maha Mantra is one of the most efficient means of opening your awareness to the spark of the Creator inside you, ultimately making it possible to attain self-realization and enlightenment. The mantra is as follows:
Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare
These words, believed to be the names of the Lord, are very powerful in this particular combination. (If you are a meditator, try listening to it or even chanting it yourself. You might quickly find yourself hypnotized). The Hare Krishnas also places a great degree of emphasis on kirtan, which is worshipful singing and playing music together as a group. In many cities throughout the western world, you can find devotees in white robes singing the mantra together, often times dancing, and always with exuberant and with smiling faces. They play an ancient Indian drum called a mridangam, and tiny brass cymbals that one claps together with their hands called kartals. For me, listening and participating in kirtan is actually one of my favorite aspects of going to temple. It is beautiful, addicting, and hypnotizing music that doubles as worship. The atmosphere in the temple during these kirtans was lively and joyful, and a major part of what kept me coming back.
Was I wrong to think it epic, was I naïve to think it grand?
Around the same time the above was happening, I had another spiritual breakthrough which occurred at the Phish show at Madison Square Garden on 12/29/2018. Any Phish fan reading this will know that this was a fantastic show, one of the best of the modern era. When my friend and I were in New York on the way to the show, we were actually approached by a young, white, Hare Krishna devotee on the subway. He complimented my friend’s shawl that he was wearing. I eagerly introduced myself as another aspiring follower of Krishna. He was offering Krishna books in exchange for small donations, as devotees commonly do. I didn’t have any cash on me, but my friend, being the kind gentleman that he is, gladly purchased one. We were in a hurry to the show, and so quickly said our goodbyes, but nonetheless I had the feeling that this meeting was a very fortuitous encounter and a positive sign for the show to come.
Our seats at the show were fantastic. By some astonishing stroke of fate, I had received incredible tickets in my first time ever entering into the Phish ticket lottery system. That night we were second row Page side, and the following night I had floors. The energy from where we were sitting was incredible, and as soon the first set got rolling I knew I was in for something really special. The songs seemed to flow together like a story. I had a strong feeling that this was exactly where I was meant to be, and what was happening in that room was extremely important. After a blazing Wolfman’s Brother that had me convinced MSG was taking off into space, my friend and I sat down in our seats to take it all in.
The sequence of events that happened next started with something entirely random. I got an awful, excruciating foot cramp in my right foot. It was something that happened often when I did a lot of walking due to my flat feet. If I moved any of the muscles in my foot it would hurt even more excruciatingly; the only way to make it go away is to relax it super hard. So I closed my eyes and began taking deep breaths, focusing on the nothing behind my eyelids. I suddenly found myself deep in a meditative trance. Opaque dreamscapes floated before my eyes while each exhalation sent me deeper into a blissful state. The pain in my foot was gone. I suddenly had the brilliant idea to start chanting. Wow…in that moment it felt so deliciously good to hear myself and feel myself speak those words. It felt addicting and incredibly hypnotizing. The mantra became my lifeline, and my consciousness latched onto it like it was my only source of life and sustenance. The words that were taking shape in my lungs and my vocal chords and my mouth became automatic. I could feel the mantra deep in my throat, and what felt like my heart.
I was struck by the mind blowing realization that the mantra was already there inside me, and that I had merely tapped into it. I entered a highly spiritual headspace and started to think about God. I suddenly then felt a powerful energy surge up toward my forehead. Still chanting, I was overcome with a feeling of bliss and peace. I felt what I can only describe as a “presence” or a “personality” with me. I recognized that presence as my own self, yet deeper and higher. It had a quality which I can only describe as perfectly serene. At the same time, I saw a vision in my mind’s eye of a beautiful sacred geometric shape that I would later recognize as the Seed of Life. Suddenly the ultimate climax occurred: I felt the energy in my head move further upward toward my crown chakra. For one brief instant, I caught a glimpse of another sacred geometric shape, the thousand-petaled Lotus swirling towards an infinite center. This was all too overwhelming, and at this point I opened my eyes and looked at my friend, who was busy staring off into space. I thought about commenting, “I think I just met God”, but decided in the moment that would be too corny (I told him after the show instead, and we laughed about it). During the second set, I strangely found myself chanting during the jams. The blissful feeling that I felt earlier would return, and the heady, psychedelic vibes of the music gave the words of the mantra an extra power which was fascinating. It became my own little bubble-experience of a show, a personal way to express and experience the music, akin to dancing.
I was still taking it all in when the first song of the encore arrived, and I heard the words in that brilliant Rolling Stones cover “Let a good lord / shine a light on you”. At the same time I suddenly remembered the Hare Krishna devotee on the train earlier. I realized at that moment that this had all for Me. Literally everything about this experience, and every song that had been performed at this concert, had been predestined by a higher power for my sake. It was for everyone else in the room too, of course… but more importantly, and undeniably, it was for Me. I instantly recognized that whatever had discovered that night was similar to the feeling that I got when I would look at Krishna in the temple and mysteriously recognize my own self. For the rest of the evening after the show ended, I found myself seeing the image of the Seed of Life in my mind’s eye, and it brought me a profound sense of peace. This was an incredible experience which cemented both the music and chanting as foundational guides in my spiritual journey. This was only my fifth time seeing Phish. I would see them another eight times over the next year and bring my chanting beads to each show.
Deep into the forest he will go…
The first time I listened closely to the song Madhuvan, it was an unseasonably warm, sunny day in early November of 2019. I had recently moved into a tiny, overpriced studio apartment in Boston’s back bay, partly to be close to the temple. I had been reading Krishna books and eating the spiritualized food from the temple, called prasadam, and on this day I was in high spirits. I was walking by the river Charles and browsing through shows on nugs net, when my eyes settled upon the name Madhuvan. I instantly recognized it from one of the books I was reading. It was a form of one of the several divine names that refer to Krishna himself. Suddenly, my heart swelled with a feeling that I can only describe as spiritual love. It was the same feeling I would sometimes get while deep in a chanting session, or gazing upon the faces of the deities in the temple.
When I first heard the main riff of the song, with its mysterious, exotic twang, I was instantly hooked. It evoked feelings of the desert and the distant past. The verses were catchy and tantalizing, with a certain weight of suspense that suggested the presence of a massive jam to follow. There was no chorus to speak of; this was not a typical pop rock song, but a proggy and authentic exploration of a concept. I then came to the bridge part of the song with that potent word, crooned wistfully into the microphone… Shelter… At this point, I felt some kind of energy rush up to my forehead. The hypnotic and sensual groove had launched me instantly into a euphoric, trance like state. My blissed only deepened upon hearing the following lyrics:
Molten beads of his Lotus feet Dangle by his belt Pure Pure Bhagavatam Dhruva Madhuvan Deep into the forest he will go No more demon roars
This was all just phenomenal. The multitude of references to Krishna in this passage was astounding. First of all, shelter is a term that is extremely common in the Krishna-centered discourse and writing. Devotees of Krishna are often said to seekshelterfrom the miseries of the material world (birth, old age, sickness, and death) at the “Lotus feet” of the Lord. Chanting on beads is a practice common to various Eastern spiritual traditions, but it is especially prominent among those of the Gaudiya Vaishnava school who follow the teachings of Srila Prabhupad, the founder of ISKCON. Furthermore, Bhagavatam is a Sanskrit word-form that refers to God, specifically as Krishna or his other well-known form, Vishnu. The Srimad Bhagavatam is the name of another important spiritual text, which comprises almost all of the best known legends surrounding Krishna. Dhruva is a common Sanskrit name, which I assumed referred to one of the characters related to Krishna in one of the many stories. And of course, Madhuva (or Madhava), which I learned means “sweet like honey”, is one of the numerous blessed names that refer to Krishna.
After noticing these various connections in the song Madhuvan, it became clear to me that one or more of the band members in Goose must be highly knowledgeable about the stories, language, and practices associated with the worship of Krishna. This was not the passing interest of someone who had flipped through the Bhagavad Gita once- it was the admiration of someone who had been exposed to, involved in, or perhaps studied the religion to a significant extent. Although I didn’t know for sure at the time, I was almost certain it was Rick.
Dare not talk the truth I have, locked up inside
At this point my curiosity was through the roof. It was so amazing that this band I recently fell in love with had a connection to the deity I had come to revere. Was it possible that someone in the band was actually a committed devotee, and perhaps they had simply not made that fact public, preferring to share their spiritual light and knowledge in a more subtle manner?
This wouldn’t be the first time that a popular rock musician has expressed a Krishna conscious message through their music. George Harrison of the Beatles was a fervent, unabashed devotee. George got seriously into Indian spirituality after attending a 1967 lecture by the transcendentalist Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, along with Paul McCartney and John Lennon. He stated in an interview, “I was actually after a mantra. I had got to the point where I thought I would like to meditate; I’d read about it and I knew I needed a mantra – a password to get through to the other world.” After this event, all four Beatles began attending private courses with Maharishi and even spent several weeks studying with him at a retreat in northern India. Although the other three Beatles acknowledged the important spiritual growth they experienced during this time, George was the only one who made it a lifelong pursuit. In the late 60s, he became involved with a community of ISKCON devotees in Britain and helped produce an album of devotional music that included the worldwide hit single, “Hare Krishna Mantra”. After the Beatles broke up, George’s devotion became a major part of his song-writing during his wildly successful solo career. His 1970 smash hit “My Sweet Lord”, is a hymn to Krishna. It contains all the divine word of the great mantra, strategically placed towards the end of the song following a refrain of “Hallelujahs”. In the song “Awaiting on You All”, from the same album, he speaks even more directly to the listeners, proclaiming “Chant in the name of the Lord and you’ll be free.”
The Hare Krishna societies that were emerging upon the west in the late 1960s were able to take root largely owing to their companionship with the psychedelic and countercultural movements taking place at the time. By the 1980s, however, the “hippie” movements of the 60s and 70s had largely died out, and ISKCON experienced a dwindling number of new devotees and a diminished public profile. Then, in the 1990s, the movement found an unlikely musical ally: the hardcore punk scenes that were exploding outside New York and Boston. Bands like the Cro-Mags, 108, and Shelter were able to achieve significant underground success through a powerful message of vegetarianism, religious devotion, sobriety, and a healthy dose of resentment towards consumerist society. (Guitarist of 108, Vic DiCara, was formerly in a band called Inside Out along with front-man Zach de la Rocha, who went on to form Rage Against the Machine). During these restless times in the early 90s, young people fed up with the hollow nature of modern society were inspired by the ancient wisdom of Hare Krishna the religion, and bands like those mentioned above helped expand the movement further. “Krishna-core” became an established sub-genre of hardcore punk… it even has its own Wikipedia page.
As it happens to many fringe subcultures, these punk communities largely diminished and faded into the 2000s, and once again ISKCON struggled to attract young, local devotees. Long story short, it has been a long time since the Hare Krishna movement was able to achieve a surge in growth due to partnership with any kind of local American subculture. Thinking of all this, a curious, giddy fantasy began to emerge in my head… what if Rick and Goose were capable of reigniting spiritual fervor for Krishna among their rapidly growing army of listeners in a way that the Hare Krishna movement desperately needed? What if the jam band community as a whole could be receptive to learning about this lovely Indian spiritual tradition which had brought me so much peace and clarity and happiness? In many ways, improvisational music is the ideal partner to spiritual seeking and spiritual practice. It is already extremely meditative and spiritual. Any experienced deadhead or phish-head will tell you that the best way to experience a show is by letting go of your ego and completely immersing yourself in the music. In fact, “Surrender to the flow” is basically the same as saying “Surrender to the Lord”! This whole idea was extremely exciting to me. I simply had to talk to Rick, or someone from Goose, and find out about their connections to Krishna.
This was an idea that simmered in my head for many months. Finally, in the week before seeing Goose live for the first time at Yarmouth, I decided to reach out to the press guy, Greg, from Goose asking if I could possibly be put in touch with one of the band members to inquire as to some of their lyrics. Greg was excited by the idea and told me he would be happy to set me up with Rick, who was the writer of both songs, sometime after fall tour was finished. I was absolutely thrilled, and began working on my questions.
The Interview
In early December when I joined the zoom call that I had scheduled, my heart pounding with nervousness and excitement, Rick was already there. The first thing I heard was the sound of chill electric guitar coming through my laptop speakers… I wasn’t certain if he was actually playing music or just listening to something (it was a few moments after I joined until he turned his video on), though enjoy thinking that it was the former. Rick had an extremely chill and easy-going demeanor, and I instantly felt relaxed talking with him. The first thing I wanted to do was give him a background for why I had reached out and the questions I was looking to ask him…
So, I thought I would start by telling you a little bit about myself first. I’ve been chanting Hare Krishna for about five years… I received a book from a devotee when I was studying abroad in New Zealand… you know how they go up to you and offer books in exchange for donations? So I read about chanting in the little book and quickly realized the meditative and hypnotic power of the Hare Krishna mantra. Then about two years ago did I start going to the ISKCON temple in Boston… have you been there?
I think I have, yeah.
Cool, and yeah that’s when I getting really into the spiritual side in terms of really worshipping and serving the deity and making that a part of my life. It was definitely a new thing for me at the time… my mom’s family is Catholic and my dad is from India but not religious, so I do have kind of a connection there. Also I am a musician and I’m learning to the drum at the temple called the mridangam…
Oh cool.
Want to see it? [I grab my mridangam and play a few notes for him]
Beautiful.
Right? So for me music and spiritualty/ chanting are very closely connected. I’m a huge fan of your music, so when I discovered that there were references to Krishna in some of your lyrics, I was really excited and curious to find out more. So basically I’m interested in learning about the connection between music and spirituality for you… So to start generally, how did you get into Krishna or Krishna consciousness?
So in 2014 I moved to Colorado with someone I was seeing and moved to Fort Collins, and one day I was walking around town alone, sat a park bench and heard some really cool music, and I went closer to it and sat near it and just observed what was going on. And I was really impressed and kind of drawn to the music itself. And I in a way recognized the people, they’re kind of young guys, like around my age that were wearing robes and sitting in a circle in this little town center area and just going at it. And I really didn’t know… I had seen people dress similarly and especially earlier in my years in Boston going to school, I would see like a bunch of people on the street going at it every once in a while… and I never really… you know it’s funny… I had never really thought about this but I was approached by someone in Boston years prior when I was like 18 or 19 probably. A tall guy in robes came up and gave me a little book and said some stuff and I wasn’t really there yet, I wasn’t really open to that kind of thing yet and I think I basically disregarded but I never really thought about that until this moment. Um that it was, you know, that it was there.
That’s how they get you (laughs) they get into your brain at first. Even if they don’t convert you, they plant a seed, you know.
Yeah, the seed was planted without my knowing. And you know, I didn’t even realize it was planted at that point until now. But yeah so years later, Colorado, just kind of sat by them and listened for a while and they were awesome musicians though… the guy singing had a beautiful, very pure voice. And the guy on the drum was really, really good. They were musicians… they were guys who could do it. I think they both had maybe studied jazz previously and then became devotees. So you know, the drummer took a break and kind of walked over and struck up a conversation, we got to talking, he invited me to the ISKCON center in Denver where they’re based. Denver is like an hour away from Fort Collins. But every Wednesday, they would drive up from Fort Collins and do an afternoon session at the college there…They came and invited any students to come along and get involved, and that day- this was like a few hours before that meeting- and he was telling me about what they were doing and what they’re all about and everything. And he invited me to come to the thing, and I went to the thing and I think I was pretty hooked that first day.
Wow, cool.
You know, I got involved, sang with them, ate the food, and had the discussions which were really enriching. And was like wow, you know, this is great, and I started going every week. And as time progressed, I started spending more time with them. Started going down to the temple in Denver and helping out here and there and going to the different events they were having and stuff like that and just got more involved with the whole program. And it was really cool, actually that was how I discovered, or was directed to Ayurveda through them as well… I had not known Ayurveda, and Ayurveda played a huge part in healing myself.
Are you a vegetarian?
I am yeah, well I eat fish now actually.
Oh okay.
But other than that, I was vegetarian since then… I started eating fish last year actually. But I became vegetarian in 2013 I think.
That’s awesome man, I’ve been trying to get on that as well for a while, but it’s a slow process, it can be a little tough, you know.
Gotta move at your own pace, you know, it’s gotta happen naturally. I feel like your body really tells you what it wants to do.
Yeah. So what extent has that remained a part of your life since then?
You know, I don’t want to be untruthful at all, it hasn’t remained an active part of my life. When at the time of the inception of the band Goose and all that, I was moving back from there and I was still seeking it out on the East coast, but I think, um, I had grown pretty close with the individuals I met through it in Denver and I didn’t quite find the same type of community after I moved back. Checked it out in Boston a little bit as I was going back to school and stuff, and went into the city a little bit, but never quite clicked the way it did with the experience out there. So it was sort of like this fragmented or isolated experience that I had while living in Colorado that was really enriching and door-opening in various ways, and in the end I guess I could say I had a few different experiences similar to that in terms of finding or discovering or coming upon a different system or methodology or set of ideas or practice… of spirituality. And they’re all good, you know. Kind of like there’s many ways to get to the roof.
Would you say that learning about Krishna was the start of a spiritual acceleration or awakening for you?
It was certainly a phase of it. Really, the spiritual awakening for me personally started when I experienced some loss in my life, and started experiencing grief, and wondering where people that were so integral in my life, such an important part of my life, that were no longer here anymore, you know… I was always when I was younger- even before all that happened- interested in the unknown, interested in mystery and occult ideas and things like that. But you never really- it’s hard to really need to dig, to need to seek when you’re comfortable. Life has a way of driving you certain places. You’re not going to- for me at least, I wasn’t really going to start asking questions in a very poignant way until I needed to. At that point after a bunch of people that I looked up to were no longer here, I needed to know more about what’s actually going on here, you know. That’s really where the real spiritual quest, if you will, began. But it led down many pathways and opened many doors, and you know, the Krishna consciousness world was definitely one of them.
Yeah that’s amazing, I bet you would probably agree that during those times of hardship when you start asking those questions is when those answers start appearing to you in different forms and different kinds of synchronistic experiences.
Exactly.
So as we know, you do have some songs that reference Krishna, so it must at least some part of, your current inspiration in your songwriting. So first I’m curious to hear a little bit about the song Indian River, and the verse from the Bhagavad Gita, which is a really beautiful and amazing verse about the imperishable nature of soul.
Yeah.
So I was wondering if you could tell me a little bit about that song or that verse or what the Gita means to you.
Sure. That song kind of came out of a… it’s very relevant to what we were just talking about on a few different levels. It has to do with experiencing loss, people that you are used to interacting with on a physical level no longer being able to do that. And seeking ways to communicate with them in other ways, which is you know, something I struggle with and strive for to this day, and will probably never stop that. And you know, it’s about signs. Synchronistic experiences, like you said. And yeah, it’s about trying to communicate with someone who’s no longer here.
Wow I didn’t know that, that’s amazing. I’m not sure I would have gotten that from the lyrics, but that’s really cool to know. [Thinking back on the lyrics to the song, as well as the meaning of the verse from the Gita, this made a ton of sense and I was surprised I didn’t think of it earlier!]
Yeah I have a tendency towards crypticism.
I think that’s awesome. So you must have read at least a little bit of the Gita?
Some, yes, I didn’t read the whole thing. Can’t B.S. you that I read the whole thing. I did not.
Do you have a copy?
Yes I do. I cherish my shelf of books, that I, you know… I think spending a lot more time in all of the awesome books that I have is something that I’m constantly striving for.
The other song I wanted to ask you about is of course the song Madhuvan, which is actually my favorite song by you guys. And so I’m just really interested in learning about what inspired that song. And before you answer, I just thought I’d mention that when I first came upon the name of that song, I was like wow that’s a name for Krishna! Because as you might know, one of the teachings of the religion is that simply by reading or hearing or speaking one of the names of God, it’s actually a form of service and a form of worship.
Yup.
What I find really cool about that song, is that because the title is one of the names of Krishna, is that you’re actually getting people closer to Krishna, whether they know it or not, by putting those vibrations out there. It’s almost like you’re planting a seed, like we were just talking about. So I would love to hear anything you want to tell me about the lyrics to that song, which I think are so cool.
So that story stood out to me because it was told to me, firsthand and as opposed to just reading it. I remember I went one night to a reading between the devotee that I became closest with- his name was Govinda- he was a great guy and there was the other guy that I was also very close with, the singer. His name was Ananda. It was a very small gathering- it was just the two of them and their teacher. And they invited me to come and read with them, just read verses of the Gita and a few other books as well. And I forget how it came up that night. But I remember Govinda ended up telling me that story of Dhruva, and it was sort of, you know a personal connection to the story. He told me the story and it really stuck with me. And it morphed into a metaphor for that song that I was working on.
So which exact story is it?
The story of Dhruva.
Oh okay, I’m not actually totally familiar.
The way I understand it, so there was a king… Dhruva was the son of a king who had two wives. He might have been a straight up bastard son, I’m not really sure. But basically, the king had a wife who was kind of the queen, and maybe had a second wife… or maybe Dhruva’s mom was a like a servant or something. So Dhruva’s mom was lesser than. And the king’s actual queen, actual wife did not like Dhruva at all. She was really mean to Dhruva and was very not accepting, and would say things like “You’ll never have the throne, like my son will inherit the throne and you’re nothing”. The father the king was kind of cool to both of them, but the mother was like ruthless apparently. So a few things happened and eventually he got older and kind of realized that this whole situation is messed up and he set out… he left the whole scene there, went into the Madhuvan forest, and started performing really, really intense… uh what’s the term you use?
Hmm, I’m not sure what the word is.
There’s a very specific word they use in Indian culture, basically just describing intense spiritual pursuit, and you know. And… you know, China is probably up there as well. But India has got to have the richest tradition of spiritual pursuit, and the most intricate. There’s just so many- it’s insane how much there is to that. To the spiritual pursuit- on all levels. On the physical level, the mental level, just all over, like across the board. The Indian tradition of spiritual pursuit and all the aspects of it and all the things that are going on, and the amount of people from India who have achieved such heightened states of being.
In the west we have no concept of how far those guys have gotten.
Seriously, and I kind of have the feeling that there’s a ton of people in India still, who no one knows who they are. They’re just hiding up there in the mountains or something, like maybe they’re 800 years old. There’s just crazy stuff going on over there.
Have you ever read Autobiography of a Yogi?
I have it… another book that I have and I haven’t read.
You gotta read that one. That’s like the life changing stuff.
I know, that’s a big one. There’s a few other books, about you know, situations like that. And I can never retain the names of all these yogis, because I just haven’t really… It hasn’t really distilled into my memory or differentiated all the different people that have brought themselves to that point. But all the people performing miracles and living to crazy ages and all kinds of stuff like that.
So it sounds like the song Madhuvan is kind of about that intense spiritual pursuit? Or mixed with the vibe of the story… it’s kind of a cool illustration of an old legend…
Yeah there’s kind of like multiple stories in my mind at least, there’s multiple stories going on in that song.
I’m curious about the first verse… that ledge is the only thing I’ve ever seen. What does that mean?
So it’s sort of like… and “always almost there” kind of ties into that as well. The idea is like, I know a lot of people and see it in myself- there’s always- you’re always striving for something. There’s always like, alright I just need to get through this month and then I’ll be good. Or I just need to get this thing, like I need to get a new house, I need to get a new couch, if I get that new couch then I’ll be good. If I get the new guitar then I’ll be good. If I get a girlfriend then I’ll be good. It’s kind of like this constant spiral of thinking that you need something outside of yourself. And the ledge is sort of the metaphor for that for me. Sort of like this thing that I want to get to that is above myself, and it just takes up my vision. It’s the only thing I see. It’s all I care about. I think you know, recognizing that that’s the case, and that’s, you know, where you are. And having self-awareness that all you care about is this one goal, with the full simultaneous awareness that once you achieve that goal, are you going to really be… if I ever get up there, am I really going to be fine then? Or am I just going to be lost and then try to figure out what the next ledge is, you know?
That’s why the treasures… they turn to sand, right?
Yup, in the verse I pictured like a guy walking through the desert- it’s almost like there’s three narratives going on at once in that song, in my mind. I mean, at the end of the day it’s a song and people can derive whatever meaning, you know. At a certain point like, what makes what I think about it more valid than anyone else? But yeah, the verses are sort of, there’s like there’s some person who’s walking through these dunes, this desert. And he’s kind of lost or whatever, and he kind of finds this truth somewhere. Up and down up and down… you find that your bones turn to rust and stuff like that, you find that you’re burning yourself out trying to get whatever your ledge is, you know. Everyone’s chasing their ledges whatever they are, and you burn yourself doing that. But I guess this guy in the desert figured it out at some point and had beads, the chanting beads, and chose that path to realizing that none of the ledges, none of the external things to himself are what’s gonna make him good. It’s in himself. He chose the chanting path to get there.
That’s beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing. Do you still chant in your free time?
I’d be lying if I said I did.
That’s okay, no worries. I just thought I’d share that I try to chant as much as I can, not every day or anything, but I actually enjoy chanting at shows and especially while listening to music. Especially jam bands. I’m a big Phish fan, I love going to Phish shows and chanting during the long jams. I find that so powerful, I have my beads and I’m standing there like a weirdo chanting like I hope nobody’s looking at me! But it’s the coolest thing.
That’s awesome.
Yeah and I actually found that during your music I can have a similar experience, and you’re actually like the only other band that can do that for me. There are some Goose jams that I chanted too and I was like wow this goes so well together, so it’s an awesome combo.
Do you like to sing with it or are you just chanting?
No I’m just chanting, literally just chanting.
Cool. It’s powerful sauce.
For sure. What do you see as the role of music in terms of what it achieves for the mind, body and soul?
Um, you know, I think it’s a mystery to me, and that’s what I love about it. I think I have a general sense of what it’s capable of doing. On a certain level, I think it’s a container. Sometimes I think about music as a container of whatever consciousness or intentions or thoughts or emotions are being experienced by- you know, mostly by the people creating it- but a lot of things impact it. So there’s a lot of times when I look back- it’s easier to see when I look back a ways and listen to music being made a certain time that I’m involved with and what’s going on musically- the language that’s happening at that time- is reflective of what’s going on interpersonally and experientially on a human level way more than I ever would have thought. It’s not like “Ugh, I didn’t practice today and that’s why it’s sounding like this”. It’s sounding like this because of the dynamic between me and the other people playing music. And where I’m at in life and what I’m experiencing, what I’m learning, what I’m struggling with, whatever it is.
Yeah.
Those things are crystallized in the music that you’re playing. You can’t avoid it. It’s the way it is. I guess certain musics are more prone to the crystallization of that stuff. You know, if you’re kind of just like playing a pop song where the goal is to get it the exact same every time with no inflection and no natural-ness- there’s less interpretation, less room for the minutiae and subtlety of what crystallized experienced and crystallized thoughts and emotions and whatever it may be into the music itself. That’s why improvisational music is really cool, because it’s very- it’s pretty pure.
And it’s meditative.
Yeah, it’s a pretty potent, uh, crystallization of that. Of whatever… It’s like a snapshot, it’s like a photo… like a way more… maybe interdimensional photo. I don’t even know… there’s so much about music that I don’t even understand on a deeper, more metaphysical level.
There’s one other perspective that I wanted to share with you that I thought you might think is cool. You’re probably a big Talking Heads fan right?
Yeah.
Have you ever read David Byrne’s book, How Music Works?
No.
Well, I highly recommend that book, it’s really awesome. There’s one chapter towards the end that’s called… it’s about the celestial spheres or the music of the spheres, and it’s about how music is like these vibrations coming from the outer plane. It’s really cool, heady stuff. And one thing he actually says is that this cosmic music is the result of vibrations that emanate with Shiva and Shakti are having sex. So the God and the Goddess creating the world together, basically. It’s kind of like this erotic union between masculine and feminine divinities, and what it really is when you immerse yourself in music, you’re kind of thinning the barrier between the unseen divine creator, which is essentially masculine, and the material world, which is essentially feminine.
Right.
So it’s almost like you’re walking right up to that thin, thin barrier which in Sanskrit is called the Brahmajyoti. That’s like something I’ve experienced getting really deep into music and immersing myself in music at Phish and also at Goose. There’s this feeling that’s hard to explain, but it’s kind of like this very thin separation between the material and the spiritual. And it’s actually what I think is sexual in nature, not just male or female, but it’s about like these polarities that go really deep and that tension between them. I think that’s one thing about music that’s really amazing. And I think it’s actually similar to something they talk about in the Krishna tradition, which is the Rasa dance between Krishna and the Gopis.
Yup.
It’s kind of like this sensual, erotic connection, which is actually so spiritually pure that it’s not erotic, because in the spiritual world everything is turned upside down, but it also is erotic at the same time. It’s about the combining of polarities. Anyway, you should definitely read that book. (laughing)
It’s very cool. I’ve heard of the music of the spheres- I’ve heard that terminology in a number of times and places and stuff like that. It makes sense that David Byrne is talking about that type of thing.
I had no idea he was so woke actually. I mean I’m not surprised, but I didn’t know he was into that kind of thing.
Yeah I didn’t know either but I’m definitely not surprised. Yeah, the music of the spheres, it’s such a cool concept and I definitely really relate to it because it’s sort of- you know, powerful music when it happens, you know it doesn’t feel like it’s coming from… if I make some music and I feel like it’s powerful, it doesn’t feel like it’s coming from me.
It’s like channeling.
Yeah, it feels like there’s literally these orbs somewhere in existence, and if you’re lucky enough to position your antenna in a certain way, you can receive it or download it.
Yeah.
Whether it’s improvisation or it’s a song or whatever it is. That’s what it feels like. And there’s just a million of them, and people all over the planet are you know, trying to tune up their antennas to pick up some cool stuff.
Yeah that’s so cool to think about. It’s almost like those melodies are just out there in the ether waiting to be pulled down, kind of right?
Yeah, and the question becomes what can you do to make yourself more and more available for that?
We have to clean out our filters, right?
Yeah exactly, what can you do to attract the coolest ones, you know? I haven’t figured it out but…
It sounds like you’re doing pretty well.
I’m working on it, I’m trying. But it’s a lifelong pursuit for sure.
I have one last question. Is Krishna consciousness something you’d be interested in sharing to any greater extent with your fans, the music community, or the world at large? I know it’s not something that’s a big part of your life right now, but it sounds like it’s something that’s made an impact on you.
Yeah, I mean in what kind of capacity do you mean?
Well I’m not sure. I guess in one way for instance, if I was a musician and writing songs, it’s such a part of my life that I would probably try to express that in my songs and share that message in a more intentional way. I guess I’m wondering if that’s something you’ve thought about, or do you see yourself as trying to spread more of a spiritual message, even if it’s not a specific one?
Yeah I’d say probably more so the latter. You know, because if there’s one thing that I’ve kind of observed through my own experience, it’s that while all of the traditions or beaten paths, you could say, of spirituality, have merit, you know… religion can get messy with people, having a lot of dogma, and all that.
Yeah of course. Well, George Harrison, did it right? (laughing)
He did, yeah.
I’m saying you could be the next George Harrison (laughing).
Well I don’t know about that (laughing). Well, one level, doing that kind of thing, from an art standpoint, it has to feel authentic. There was a time in my life when I was trying to write songs that were heady and woke. And you can’t force it, right. Authenticity in songwriting or in any art form is kind of the most important thing, so if I’m just trying to be heady and woke it’s not going to work, you know.
Right.
But touching on what I was talking about before, and your question before about what’s the purpose of music… I kind of have this feeling like, even if you’re not spelling it out in a song. Although spelling it out is certainly… you know, there’s a lot of great amazing songs that really spell things out and people really resonate with that. But I feel like… even if you don’t spell out something like a spiritual idea or some sort of teaching or something like that, you’re dancing around it, if you’re kind of painting some picture… that’s parallel. You know, if it’s in my thought process or whoever’s creating the thing- if that’s what they’re thinking about, it’s going to make its way into the music, one way or another.
Yeah.
Music at its best form, really encompasses everything that its creators are experiencing. So if you’re experiencing a lot of fear and anger and hatred, that’s going to be in your music. And there’s a lot of music that has those vibrations in it, and sometimes I hear music like that and it’s kind of hard to listen to. But I also get it because a lot of people have those feelings and they’re like “Ah, this expresses what I’m feeling”. And it’s a crazy world we’re living in, we’re all messed up in one way or another… And I really understand that, so I understand why it exists and why people resonate with it. But yeah, it comes back to the point that I think if there is a spiritual intention behind the music you create, whether or not it’s being spelled out… One thing I would want to stray away from is forcing, creating an impression that I’m imposing spirituality.
Right, I’m sure that’s the last thing you want to do.
Right, it just doesn’t work like that. But trying your best to express what’s authentic to you, but if that happens to be a spiritual thing, maybe someone will resonate with it and maybe it will open some kind of door for them in some way.
Absolutely. Well I hope you can keep reading your Gita and I hope you’ll come out with another song that relates to Krishna, because those are like, my heart and soul right there.
Awesome, that’s awesome man.
I did have this one crazy idea, that maybe sometime in the future once COVID is over, I could get a couple of my Hare Krishna friends together and do a thing where we no serve Prasadam before a Goose show. Cause you know, that would get people really fired up with the spiritual energy.
Oh yeah, yeah yeah.
What do you think about that?
I’m all about that. I’d get involved for sure. I’m just really, really into Prasadam.
Fantastic.
…
That’s all folks! Thanks so much for reading! There were several things that I really wish I got a chance to ask Rick about, such as what he found particularly meaningful about Krishna philosophy, but I was hesitant to take up too much of his time.
One last thing… ever since I got into Goose I have admired the band’s description on the “About” section of their website and on their social media platforms, written by some talented writer. It reads:
Goose could be likened to a keg party in the woods on a summer night with all of your closest friends. While behind this bonfire-lit gathering, further into the forest, there is a deeper mystery awaiting those looking for it.
I still don’t know what this mystery is, and I’m not certain that Rick or anyone in the band knows either. However, I like to think that secretly, to those in the know, the deeper mystery is spiritual enlightenment through devotion to the Supreme Lord. A guy can dream 🙂
Hare Krsna!
Satsang Stories 
Thanks for sharing your conversation with Rick. The intense spiritual feeling is something I too have felt at their shows (along with Phish and Billy Strings). For me, it’s when you go there and the musicians have opened that portal for exploration in the music and jams it can create the plane of presence. It’s super powerful. Peace and love!
LikeLiked by 1 person
I’ve read this interview several times now and thought I should drop a thank you here for it. For people who start getting into Goose and instantly recognize that spiritual aspect that is present, it’s really nice to be able to hear some background.
LikeLiked by 1 person